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 ISKCON New Talavan Community
Welcome to ISKCON New Talavan Community
Founder-Acharya: His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
Temple President: His Grace Yogindra Vandana das Adhikari
31492 Anner Road • Carriere, Mississippi 39426 • 601-213-3586 •

     
 

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Srila Prabhupada on farm communities

"Our farm projects are an extremely important part of our movement. We must become self-sufficient by growing our own grains and producing our own milk, then there will be no question of poverty. So develop these farm communities as far as possible. They should be developed as an ideal society depending on natural products not industry. Industry has simply created godlessness, because they think they can manufacture everything that they need. Our Bhagavad-gita philosophy explains that men and animals must have food in order to maintain their bodies. And the production of food is dependent on the rain and the rain of course is dependent on chanting Hare Krsna. Therefore let everyone chant Hare Krsna, eat nicely and keep their bodies fit and healthy. This is ideal life style. We do not condemn modern civilization but we don't like to get it at the cost of God Consciousness, that is suicide." — Letter to Rupanuga, 18 December, 1974


"Oh yes, it is quite correct to try for complete exemption for your land. Why we should be taxed? Our work is all welfare work meant for the good of the general public. Such properties are always given tax exemption as you have pointed out to the newspapermen. The presentation of our position in the article is nicely given.

Yes, if our householders cannot distribute books, then let them live in the farm communities. They can produce thread for cloth, spinning, and other such activities. But they must do something, not sit idly, for an idle brain is the devil's workshop." — Letter to Nityananda, 12 April, 1977


"Yes. Farm project is very nice. Krsna gives. Krsi-go-raksya-vanijyam vaisya-karma svabhava-jam. [Bg. 18.44]: 'Farming, cow protection and trade are the natural work for the vaisyas…'] This is economic problem solved. And brahmana, brain problem solved, and ksatriya, protection problem solved, and sudra, labor problem solved. Four things combined together, live peacefully, happily. Chant Hare Krsna. Introduce this farm project. In America there is enough scope. So much land is lying vacant. And if there are jungles, cut the jungles; use the wood. Just like our Virginia. Big, big jungles. You cut the woods, you get ground, open field, and utilize the logs for house-making. Food, shelter, everything there. In Africa, everywhere, the nature’s way. Purnam idam [Sri Isopanisad, Invocation]. Everything, complete arrangement by Krsna. We have to little work. Sarira-yatrapi ca te na prasiddhyed akarmanah. [From Bg. 3.8: 'Perform your prescribed duty, for doing so is better than not working. One cannot even maintain one’s physical body without work.'] If you sit idly, then you’ll starve. Otherwise everything is there. You work little and get your all necessities. Eko yo bahunam vidadhati kaman. [Katha Upanisad 2.2.13: 'The Supreme Lord…maintains innumerable other individual living beings.'] That one person, God, He’s supplying everyone whatever necessities. You have to simply work little. That is material world." — Evening Darshan, February 15, 1977


My dear Bahudak,

Please accept my blessings. I am in due receipt of your letter dated November 21, 1974 and have noted the contents.

I am very glad to hear about your new farm-asrama existing there. We want to develop many such farms all over the world. Your are enthusiastic and intelligent and it appears that you are managing in nicely. Why not call it New Gokula instead of New Mayapur. I think that is better. It is alright that you have purchased machinery and are using on the farm but if you can do without as much as possible that is better. It sounds as if the living conditions there may be a little extreme. But if the devotees can learn to tolerate as you say they are determined, and can stay and work there that is very good. And I give all encouragement to them.

Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita, Ch. 2, text 14; matra-sparsas tu kaunteya, sitosna-sukha-duhkha-dah, agamapayino 'nityas, tams titiksasva bharata [Bg. 2.14] "O son of Kunti, the nonpermanent appearance of happiness and distress, and their disappearance in due course, are like the appearance and disappearance of winter and summer seasons. They arise from sense perception, O scion of Bharata, and one must learn to tolerate them without being disturbed." So remember Krishna's instructions in the Bhagavad-gita and continue to work with all enthusiasm and encourage the others also to do the same.

As far as you opening a local Gurukula program there, I have no objection if it can be done nicely. So consult with Satsvarupa Maharaja for further instructions.

To develop a farm community such as the one you are doing, it requires much hard work and endurance. But if you work sincerely then Krishna will give you all facilities and men. Therefore continue working and follow the good example that the devotees in New Vrndavana have set and everything will go very nicely. If you have any specific questions you can refer to New Vrndavana and they may be able to help you.

I hope this meets you in good health.

Your ever well wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami


You say we must have a gosala trust, that is our real purpose: krsi-goraksya-vanijyam vaisya karma svabhava-jam [Bg. 18.44]. Where there is agriculture there must be cows. That is our mission: Cow protection and agriculture and if there is excess, trade. This is a no-profit scheme. For the agriculture we want to produce our own food and we want to keep cows for our own milk. The whole idea is that we are ISKCON, a community to be independent from outside help. This farm project is especially for the devotees to grow their own food. Cotton also, to make their own clothes. And keeping cows for milk and fatty products.

Our mission is to protect our devotees from unnecessary heavy work to save time for advancing in Krsna consciousness. This is our mission. So there is no question of profit, but if easily there are surplus products, then we can think of trading. Otherwise we have no such intention. We want a temple, a gosala and agriculture. A community project as in Europe and America. We are making similar attempts in India in several places. Immediately I'm going to Hyderabad to organize the farm project there. We have 600 acres. We have the permission from the government. There is no question of ceiling. You may call the gosala: ISKCON Gosala and Farm Project Trust.


Prabhupada: Wherever we have got farm, we construct a temple also. Explain.

Pusta Krsna: The... Just like we have so many farming communities. Prabhupada has mentioned that wherever our farm is... Actually we’re not farmers.

Guest(1): No?

Pusta Krsna: Prabhupada is trying to create a class of intelligent men, brahmanas. Brahmana is the head...

Prabhupada: First class.

Pusta Krsna: ...of the human society. But actually it’s one body, one entity already, simply that with different activities that we have to perform. The example is given, that there is the head; there’s the arms; there’s the belly, the abdomen; and then there is the legs. And all of them are part of the same body. So you might say that the legs are removed from the head, or that the head is removed from the stomach, but actually it’s all one body and it works together. But the head gives direction to the whole body, how to act properly, so that the benefit is there to be derived. So Srila Prabhupada is creating a class of brahmanas, or heads of human society, who can give direction to the whole sphere of human activities so that they can become successful in human life. So in reality, we’re not trying to create farmers, we’re trying to create brahmanas. But our farming communities are, so to speak, an example, an ideal example how human society can live: some people in the capacity of preachers, some people in the capacity of farmers, how so many activities can go on—various occupations—but all of them can be God-centered. So in reality, these people, they’re farmers, they’re out there on their tractor, they can jump off their tractor at any moment and preach the highest philosophy, because actually they’re brahmanas. They (are the) intelligent class of men. So it’s one entity. The basic principle is that modern society is neglecting to train up—especially young men, you can see that in spite of so many universities throughout the world—these young men are being trained up how to become women-hunters and debauches. Going to the bars, going to the gambling houses, and they are supposed to be educated people. So real education is how to train up one to have ideal character, to become a brahmana.


My Dear Nityananda,

Please accept my blessings. I beg to thank you for your letter dated February 21st, 1977, and I have noted the contents. The New Talavan Review and the brochure are both very nicely done and I thank you for them.

So far as Gurukula is concerned, literary education is for the Brahminical class, not for all. Others should learn by seeing, like the ksatriyas, vaisyas, and sudras. Just like driving a bullock cart; it doesn't require education. Modern so-called education is simply a waste of time producing hippies. Shameless! Why compulsory education? To make hippies--compulsory education to degrade. So it is very fortunate that there is no compulsory education required by the state of Mississippi.

Whatever is available easily we can use. There is no objection to using electricity. But we should not be dependent upon it. Produce oil from castor seeds and stock the oil sufficiently. It can be used in so many ways--for burning, grease, cooking, and as a purgative to cure all diseases. And oxen can be used for driving carts and go preaching village to village. What is the question of killing them? Here in India our Lokanatha Maharaja has successfully organized such a program and it is a great success. He has traveled all over India and everywhere they distribute books, prasadam and perform kirtana, village to village. Each night they stop at a different village. We can introduce many millions of such carts all over the world.

If you are getting enough milk from the cows simply by pasturing them, then that is all right. But if you require more then you may have to feed them special grains. We want to do whatever is easy and save time for Krishna consciousness.

As far as you are able to adjust to a natural way of life, do it immediately. Our principle is that we are against nothing and for nothing. Only for Krishna. We want whatever is favorable for Krishna.

I am returning one Deity photo to you. This dressing style is not authorized. But the other photos are very nice. Please go on very enthusiastically developing your farming community. I hope this meets you in the best of health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami


Nityananda: Way over the hill and back down there is all ours. In this field we have the calves. And in this field here we have the big cows.

Prabhupada: It is not now utilized?

Nityananda: Not… No. We are just growing hay. Grass for hay. We can sell the hay in the winter for a good price.

Prabhupada: It is not possible to walk. (break) …it is born?

Nityananda: This one? Last week. His name is… Her name is Laksmi. There is more over here. (break) Bull calves. We are getting more bulls than females.

Prabhupada: Why?

Nityananda: I don’t know.

Prabhupada: Then how utilize the bulls?

Nityananda: To plow?

Prabhupada: Plow, transport. You have to engage more men for plowing. Two bulls will be required for each plow.

Nityananda: We can go this way maybe? See the sugarcane?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Jagadisa: This is not taking this yet?

Prabhupada: No. Why?

Nityananda: We just cut it two days ago, and then it rained. We have to wait for it to dry before you can…

Prabhupada: They will not be spoiled.

Nityananda: Yes, if it stays here too long, it will spoil.

Prabhupada: And it rains.

Devotee: We will take it to the garden.

Prabhupada: Then it will be soil? It will be fertilizer soil? Or no. When it is decomposed? (break) Drinking water?

Nityananda: Milk.

Prabhupada: Milk. (laughter) That is meant for calves? Those milk?

Nityananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: What is this?

Nityananda: The barn.

Prabhupada: No, this part.

Nityananda: Oh, that’s the door. It fell off. These are orange trees here.

Prabhupada: Oh. How long it will take to grow?

Nityananda: Well, some down here already have a few oranges, but it will take a few years before they give a lot. They are very sweet kind. (break)

Prabhupada: So small still. They are growing. (break)

Nityananda: …sugarcane here. (break)

Prabhupada: …grow very high. (break) …trees?

Nityananda: Pine trees.

Brahmananda: You can use those for making the cabins, cottages?

Nityananda: Yes. (break)

Prabhupada: …natural arrangement. Jungles—you cut the tree, make your home, and balance you make fuel. And the ground, plow and grow your food. That’s all, natural.

Jagadisa: Everything.

Prabhupada: In India still, in the villages they do not know, other than this wood fuel, anything else. They are misusing these trees by cutting, manufacturing paper, heaps of paper, in each house throwing daily. They do not read, but they are supplied heaps of paper and cutting these trees. Simply waste. Now wood and paper shortage all over the world. It takes so much time to grow, and one day they cut hundreds of trees like this and put into the paper mill. And heaps of paper is given every house, and he throws away. Then you bring garbage tank. In this way, waste.

Nityananda: There are some beehives down here behind this building. I have twelve, and every year we can get hundreds of pounds of honey. Honey is very nice because it does not spoil, just like ghee. It can keep for many, many months, or a long time. We can go up here to see the cows if you like. Right now they are milking them.

Prabhupada: So if we go, it will be disturbed?

Nityananda: Oh, no.

Prabhupada: This is one sugarcane each? No. Two, three?

Nityananda: Yes, at least three. People here in the country, they have lots of land, and they can grow the sugarcane very easily, but they will rather go to the store to buy the sugar.

Prabhupada: Because they want to live in the city. That is the… Here if they grow, then they will be engaged here. They cannot go to the city.

Brahmananda: They grow cash crops, make money, and then go spend it in the city.

Nityananda: The principal livelihood of our neighbors is to grow cows for slaughter.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is all over Western countries.

Nityananda: They don’t have to work. They simply put some cows in their field, and when the price is high, they sell them. In this way they live.

Brahmananda: What is the attitude of the neighbors to us here? They like us?

Nityananda: Pretty friendly.

Brahmananda: There’s a papaya.

Prabhupada: They grow nicely here?

Nityananda: Er, we’re trying. I don’t know yet.

Devotee (3): Would you like to be fanned, Srila Prabhupada?

Harikeça: Just keep the flies away.

Prabhupada: He is very friendly to the small calves, this child?

Nityananda: Yes. That’s my boy.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Nityananda: His name is Vimala.

Jagadisa: He chases them all over.

Prabhupada: Just see. That is the difference between animal and man. A child can control so many calves. Krsna was doing that. One stick in the hand of a child can control fifty cows. The child is controller of many cows; a man is controller of many children. In this way, controller, controller, controller, over, over, over… When there is final controller, that is Krsna. Éçvaraù paramaù Krsnaù [Bs. 5.1].[Brahma-saàhitä 5.1: “The Supreme Lord is Krsna.”] This is the definition of Krsna: “The final controller.”

Nityananda: Here is the cows here. We can see them from here.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Nityananda: Inside the barn they are milking two at a time. And upstairs we keep all the hay.

Brahmananda: You keep figures on how much each milk per cow every day?

Nityananda: You hear it?

Prabhupada: Yes. Then how the milk will be utilized?

Nityananda: We make sweet rice and burfi, we take the cream to make butter and ghee, and all extra milk is made into curd. So it is all used. Thirty gallons a day.

Prabhupada: One gallon means 6 pounds?

Nityananda: Eight and a half.

Prabhupada: Eight and a half pounds. In Vrindaban they get 1,000 pounds daily, New Vrindaban. What is that cottage?

Nityananda: That what?

Devotees: Cottage there.

Nityananda: That’s a little house for the pump, water pump.

Prabhupada: This fencing was done before?

Nityananda: Before. This farm was once owned by a person who grew race horses for racing and gambling.

Prabhupada: Racing is also gambling.

Brahmananda: How much did you pay for it?

Nityananda: The farm? 170,000 [U.S. dollars]. This field here is millet. It’s a grass for the cows to eat. They give lots of milk because they eat this grass. Very nutritious.

Prabhupada: You are not producing for man?

Nityananda: Pardon?

Prabhupada: Any grains for man?

Nityananda: No, we’re not growing any grains for man right now. We have fruit trees in the yard. Pears, peaches, plums, figs.

Prabhupada: Some growing?

Nityananda: Not very much. They are very young. We just planted them. In a few years we will get lots of fruit.

Prabhupada: Here the land is mixed with some stones? No.

Nityananda: I think they put this here, this gravel.

Prabhupada: There is no mango tree here? No.

Nityananda: No what?

brahmanada: Mango trees.

Nityananda: We have some growing at the house.

Prabhupada: Vegetables you are growing?

Nityananda: Yes. We have a garden across the street. All these big trees are pecan trees. We have twenty. All this land across the road here that is cleared is ours, all the way up to the trees.

Prabhupada: (reading sign?) “Cow protection and God consciousness. Visitors welcome.” That’s nice. So, which way we shall go now? Cow protection, they are surprised: “What is this nonsense, cow protection?” Huh? Do they say? “Cow is for eating, and you are protecting?” There are falls?(?)

Nityananda: Falls?(?) No. This is our small garden.

Prabhupada: Fruits and flowers. No, only fruits. What you are doing, flowers?

Nityananda: This is okra.

Prabhupada: Oh, okra.

Nityananda: And sweet potatoes. And we have eggplants, tomatoes, and peppers here.

Prabhupada: They give daily some fruits?

Nityananda: Yes. And then we grow potatoes too.

Prabhupada: Oh, where? Which side?

Nityananda: Well, the spring crop was already harvested. We have to plant the fall potatoes in a few weeks. We’ll put them over there by the fence.

Prabhupada: So it is nice farm. This is squash?

Nityananda: That’s a cantaloupe plant.

Prabhupada: Oh, cantaloupe. You can grow cantaloupe here?

Nityananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: And also watermelon?

Nityananda: Yes.

Jagadisa: There is one big watermelon on the vine up there. Perhaps it’s ready to eat.

Prabhupada: We are getting similar land, 600 acres, in Hyderabad.

Nityananda: We can go this way, here. This is all our machinery here.

Prabhupada: Hm. So already some machine idle. You had to spend so much, but they are lying idle. That is not good. That is the defect of machine. If you cannot ply it, then it is dead loss.

Brahmananda: If you cannot what?

Prabhupada: It is dead loss if you cannot work with the machine.

Brahmananda: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: But when you go to purchase you have to pay lots of money. Now they will be rusty with water and gradually useless. How much money you have invested?

Nityananda: Thousands.

Prabhupada: Just see. This is the defect of machine. If you cannot utilize it, then it is dead loss.

Brahmananda: Where are the tractors kept?

Nityananda: One’s at the house, and one’s in the field.

Prabhupada: So they have to be utilized or rejected, these machines?

Nityananda: Yes, they all have a purpose. We use them from time to time.

Prabhupada: But now they are kept open and the…

Nityananda: Well, we are building a shed to keep them out of the rain.

Prabhupada: In the meantime it will be finished. By the time you finish your shed, it is finished. Çästre çästre dal phariyaga.(?) “Some women were dressing to go to a fair, and when they were dressed, the fair was finished.” (laughter) Utilize them. Otherwise, while they are in working order, sell them. Don’t keep in that way, neglected way. Either utilize it or sell it at any cost. Otherwise they are useless.

Devotee: Srila Prabhupada? A materialist or someone who wouldn’t know, he may say that when the bull is not plowing, all he is doing is eating. You have to pay money to feed him grain or to grow grain to feed the bull.

Prabhupada: They will grow, and they will eat. Rather, they will help you for your eating. The father also eats, but he maintains the family. Therefore the bull is considered as father and the cow as mother. Mother gives milk, and the bull grows food grains for man. Therefore Caitanya Mahäprabhu first challenged that Kazi that “What is your religion, that you eat your father and mother?” Both the bulls and the cows are important because the bull will produce food grain and the cow will give supply milk. They should be utilized properly. That is human intelligence. This is filling up with paddy or…? No?

Nityananda: With food for the cows. This one has forage or fodder, and that one has grain.

Prabhupada: So everything is for the animals. Nothing for the man?

Nityananda: The cows give us milk.

Prabhupada: That’s all? And you are not growing any food grains? Why?

Nityananda: Er… We’ve been trying to establish self-sufficient cow protection program first, to grow our own food for the cows.

Brahmananda: There is no land available for growing rice or wheat?

Nityananda: Yes, but the number of devotees we have to do it…

Brahmananda: But you have so many machines.

Prabhupada: All these machines require oiling and keeping nicely. Otherwise it will spoil.

Devotees in distance: All glories to Srila Prabhupada!

Prabhupada: Jaya. Hare Krsna. They are starting?

Brahmananda: They are starting back.

Nityananda: Down the road we have fifteen acres of sorghum, grain for the cows.

Prabhupada: And everything for the cows, but what for the man? They will give everything for cows because they will eat cows, other farmers. But you utilize the animals for growing your food.

Brahmananda: The idea is we should maintain the animals, but then the animals should provide foodstuffs for the men.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: And that way there is cooperation.

Prabhupada: Yes. The animals, bulls, should have helped… instead of that machine. Then it is properly utilized. And others, they cannot utilize these animals. Therefore, what they will do? Naturally they will send to slaughterhouse. But we are not going to send to the slaughterhouse. Then what we will do? They must be utilized. Otherwise simply for growing food that the cows and bulls we engage ourself? You are already feeling burden because there are so many bull calves. You were asking me, “What we shall do with so many bulls?”

Nityananda: Well, when they grow up we will train them as oxen.

Prabhupada: No, what the oxen will do?

Nityananda: Plow the fields.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is wanted. Transport, plowing fields. That is wanted. And unless our men are trained up, Krsna conscious, they will think, “What is the use of taking care of the plows (cows)? Better go to the city, earn money and eat them.”


NEW ORLEANS, AUGUST 1, 1975

ROOM CONVERSATION WITH DEVOTEES

NEW TÄLAVANA FARM

Prabhupada: That is time for punishment. They should build up their character, çamaù, damaù, fully controlled. When they like, they become gåhasthas. Otherwise they are controlled. That is brahmana. For brahmana it is not compulsory to marry. Ksatriyas may marry more than one wife. They can take. So all girls must be married. That is… They must…They must have one husband, even the husband has got fifty wives. Then the problem of girls’ marriage will be solved. And as soon as one girl is pregnant, she should be separated.

Hådayänanda: From the husband.

Prabhupada: At least for one and half years.

Upendra: At the moment of pregnancy? From the moment of pregnancy one and a half years?

Prabhupada: Yes. Pregnancy is understood at three months. From that month till further, sixteen months at least, she should not come to be near husband. That is eka-kadi (?). The child does not live. And they are not inclined to come unless a man induces. So the man, if he has got more than one wife, so man will not disturb her. And she will take rest for the next eighteen months. So after ten months she will give birth to the child, and for six months continually she will take care of the child. Feeding the child with breast milk, the child will be healthy. If the child can take mother’s milk for six months at least continually, he’ll become healthy for life.

Upendra: Where do they send that mother?

Prabhupada: Where they’ll take care.

Upendra: If the man sends the woman away, where does she…?

Prabhupada: Our aim is not to give help, but not… Generally she goes to the father’s house. So you can have separate building for that.

Nityananda: Are you saying that our men should have more than one wife?

Prabhupada: I have no objection.

Satsvarupa: That’s a difficult proposition.

Prabhupada: Why?

Satsvarupa: It’s not allowed in this country. It’s illegal. It’s against the law.

Devotee: It’s against the law.

Nityananda: No, it’s a matter of… No one knows who is married or unmarried, but if you have…

Prabhupada: That is not very difficult.

Satsvarupa: Well, the other difficulty, you brought this up several years ago, was that the men who take many wives have to be very select. Otherwise men will be attracted to join our movement for sex life, having different wives.

Prabhupada: No, no, unless our men are trained up, why you should allow to stay here and to wife. We want trained up men, not third-class picked-up. We want men who will follow the rules and regulations and fully trained up. Otherwise we don’t want. We don’t want ordinary karmés and… And if he agrees to be trained up, then we’ll take. Otherwise what is the use of bringing some useless men? He must agree to produce his own food, and work. Our rules and regulations, he must follow. Then it will be ideal community. Otherwise, if you bring from here and there some men and fill up, that is not good thing. This is a training institution, to become devotee.

Satsvarupa: Everything we do, we don’t hide it. We show the world what we’re doing. I don’t see how we could hide that one man had many different wives.

Prabhupada: If you don’t call wife, you can have. The law allows you to keep boyfriend, girlfriend. Then the… Instead of calling “husband,” call “friend.” That’s all. But, er, it is risky and the man must be responsible to keep… To keep more than one wife by trained-up man is not disallowed.

Brahmananda : But I think they thought that he could get it legally established, at least in the state of California.

Prabhupada: Well then go and marry there. If the state of California allows that, then they all can go to California.

Nityananda: The general public objects to that… It’s very…

Prabhupada: Public we don’t care. We… What is the public? We have got our own public here. So pub… What is the public? All rascals. They are killing cows and drinking and topless dance, bottomless dance. What is the value of this public? All rascals. I don’t give any importance to this class of public, only after sense gratification, that’s all. They have no ideals of life. They do not know what is God. What is the value of this public? Müòhas, they have been described, mudhas. You know the meaning of mudha?

Devotee: Ass.

Prabhupada: Ass. Mudho nabhijanati mam ebhyaù paramam mama. [From Bg. 7.25: “I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency, and therefore they do not know that I am unborn and infallible.”]

Nityananda: The householders on our farm, they should cooperate and produce the food centrally or every householder should produce his own food independently?

Prabhupada: No. Why they are living in a community centrally? Commu nity means work everything for the community.

Devotee: Some men can cultivate the fields, some men can take care of the cows, some men… They can (indistinct) responsible.

Prabhupada: No, it is service (?).

Upendra: One question I have, Prabhupada… When I heard about New Vrindaban… I’ve not been there myself, so I cannot say firsthand, but I’ve talked with devotees have been there.

Prabhupada: Near.

Upendra: One would think because there’s land and room for vegetables and there are so many cows that there would be a plentiful supply of milk, but I understand that they use powdered milk. The devotees use powdered milk there.

Prabhupada: Why?

Upendra: Because they make all the milk into ghee and distribute it. And vegetables… I heard that at the temple that they use powdered milk. In Philadelphia I questioned the… That carpenter who made your table? He (indistinct).

Prabhupada: Why powdered milk if there is sufficient milk?

Upendra: I don’t know. I can’t say firsthand, but from the man who lived there, one of the householders who lived there, he said powdered milk…

Prabhupada: I don’t think so.

Devotee: I have heard that.

Prabhupada: No. This is not good. Ghee should be prepared where there is no more use. The Indian village, simply by keeping cows, they… Just like Nanda Mahäräja was keeping cows. Similarly there are many villages. So the system is: they have got a big pan, and whatever milk is collected, put into that pan. It is being warmed. So they drink, the whole family members. They drink milk whenever they like. So whatever milk remains at night, they have to convert it into yogurt. The next day they use milk and yogurt also, as he likes. Then, after converting the milk into yogurt, still, it remains. It is stocked. So when there is sufficient old yogurt, they churn it and then butter comes out. So they take the butter, and the water separated from the butter, that is called whey? Whey, yes. So they… Instead of däl, they use this whey, for capäté. It will be very healthy and tasty. And then the butter they turn into ghee. So where is the loss, (indistinct)? You require (indistinct).

Satsvarupa: Only after the whole milk is consumed, then the other…

Prabhupada: Milk you are collecting. So put in the pan. I have already explained. From milk stage to yogurt, yogurt to old yogurt, from old yogurt to butter, and then water, that whey. Then butter convert into ghee and whey, you can use, instead of drinking water, drink whey. Not a single drop of milk will be wasted, if you know how to do it. And you can take as much milk as possible, because ultimately it is going to be ghee. So if you start in the cities, nice restaurant, so ghee can be sold there. They’ll pay for that. And they can prepare nice preparations, kachoris, samosa, sweetballs. Or milk, if you don’t convert into yogurt, then naturally it will become… What is called?

Brahmananda: Curd.

Prabhupada: Curd. So curd you can send to the city. They will convert into sandeça, rasagullä and other preparations, and ghee. That is being done. In India the villagers, they do that. They are, keep cows. Convert them into curd or ghee, and ghee and curd sent to the city, they have got regular price for that. There is no question of waste of milk at any stage. One must know how to do it. So you can keep as many cows as possible and collect as much milk from them. You can utilize. And if some of the villagers trained up, they can open nice restaurant in the city. Utilize the ghee, curd, for making nice confectionary. People will purchase like anything. Just like in our Rathayäträ festival, whatever sweets they prepared, all sold at good profit. Your countrymen, they did not see such nice things. And when they taste it—“Very nice.”

Brahmananda: They were selling one gulabjamin for seventy-five cents.

Prabhupada: Just see. (laughs) It may cost two cent. And you have got your sugar also. In this way organize. Avoid machine. Keep everyone employed as brahmana, as ksatriya, as vaisya. Nobody should sit down. brahmanas, they are writers, editors, lecturers, instructors, worshiping Deity, ideal character. They have no anxiety for food, for clothing. Others should supply them. They haven’t got to work. Sannyäsé is always preaching, going outside. In this way keep everyone fully engaged. Then it will be ideal. Otherwise people will criticize that we are simply eating and sleeping, escaping, so many, so many. And actually that is the position. Unless one is fully engaged, oh, that is not good. That is tamo-guna. Tamo-guna, and rajo-guna very active, and sattva-guna, intellectual activity. [“Rajo-guna, the mode of passion; sattva-guna, the mode of goodness; tamo-guna, the mode of ignorance.”] Both of them, active, only tamo-guna, not active. (indistinct) Tamo-guna means sleeping and laziness. These are the symptoms of tamo-guna. Every saintly man can avoid these two things—laziness and sleeping. Of course, as much you require, sleeping allowed, not more than… And keep everyone active, man or woman—all. Then it will be ideal society.

Nityananda: Without a machine how can you make sugar from the cane?

Prabhupada: Hand machine.

Nityananda: Hand machine?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Nityananda: Metal?

Prabhupada: Yes, they manufacture, hand, hand in the sugar cane, two men. Even we can prepare hand machine by cutting the wood. They do that. We are not against machine. You can utilize machine. But we should not allow others unemployed and use machine. This should be point. You can use. Use machine, that’s good, but not at the risk of keeping others unemployed. This should be noted. First thing is that everyone should be employed. If you have got many men, then why should you engage machine? These rascals, they do not know. They’re taking machine and keeping so many men unemployed. And the welfare department is paying them. They do not know how to organize society. And therefore hippies are coming out. Crime, criminals are coming out. (indistinct) The government is paying for becoming criminals and hippies and prostitutes. And how you can be happy [with] a society full of prostitutes, hippies, and criminals?

Brahmananda: In New York City they now have one million people who are receiving welfare.

Prabhupada: And all criminals.

Brahmananda: Yes. All criminals, prostitutes, and hippies.

Prabhupada: Because the government is paying for that, and they are now thinking that “What to do about crime?” This is rascaldom. You act in such a way, then repent later on.

Brahmananda: There was one boy from Sweden, he was our devotee. And then he fell into maya. He returned to Sweden. Now he’s getting from the government fifty dollars a week. So he’s using that money to buy drugs. So now he’s completely trapped.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: He gets money regularly, and he can never get out of the habit.

Prabhupada: In your country also. One keeps a girlfriend, the girl’s getting welfare, and he is purchasing drugs, and then their husband goes. I have seen. Some of our students have been. I have seen them.

Satsvarupa: That’s very prominent.

Prabhupada: And making trade. That is going on.

Brahmananda: So this is the varnasrama system that you are…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: This varnasrama college…

Prabhupada: Yes. Varnasrama means everyone should be engaged. There will be no, I mean to say, (indistinct).

Jagadisa: Srila Prabhupada, what exactly do the… Do the vaisyas cultivate the fields or the sudras cultivate the fields?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Jagadisa: Is it the duty of the vaisyas to cultivate the fields or…?

Prabhupada: Actually it is the duty of the vaisyas, but the sudras can help everyone, the helpers. The sudras will help the brahmanas, the Ksatriyas, as well as the vaisyas. Those who have no brain—simply they can carry out order—they are sudras. And those who have got brain, they can act as brahmana, ksatriya, or vaisya. They have got brain to take the initiative. First-class brain, they should be engaged in studying çästras, writing books and in the worship of the Deity, lecturing enlightened people. This is brahmana. They haven’t got to work as ksatriya, as vaisya. They are simply intellectuals. This is brahmana, with good character.

Devotee: Distributing books?

Prabhupada: Yes. And the distribution book can be done by the vaisya, trade. It is a trade. Krsi-go-raksya-väëijyam [Bg. 18.44]. Krsi, agriculture, giving protection to cows, and distributing or trading. If you have got enough grains you can trade. Make money. If you have got enough vegetables, you can trade. That is the business of vaisya. So vaisya does not require any university degree or any… Nobody requires university degree. That is a false thing. And brahmana should be very highly learned scholar. So the brahmanas will give advice to the ksatriya how to rule, and the ksatriya will levy tax, and vaisyas will produce food. Then the society will be perfect.

Devotee: What kind of tax?

Prabhupada: Hm? Tax means… Everyone must have some income for maintaining. So brahmanas [don’t] require any… They will live on the contribution of the society. Because they are giving for free service, so valuable service, knowledge, so they are provided by the Ksatriyas and the vaisyas. So they have no anxiety for earning livelihood. Things are coming. Just like we are maintained. At least people give to me contribution. So similarly, brahmana will live at the cost of others’ contribution. That is source of income. Ksatriyas, they’ll levy tax. ksatriya is given land. Now he divides the land. I have got, say, two thousand acres of land. So I divide to the vaisyas, one thousand this man, one thousand this man, one thousand. So on condition that “I give you this land. You produce foodstuff or utilize any way. You give me twenty-five percent.”

Brahmananda: Twenty-five percent of the produce?

Prabhupada: Whatever you have produced.

Brahmananda: Not necessarily money.

Prabhupada: No.

Brahmananda: But the produce.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Brahmananda: The grains or the milk or whatever.

Prabhupada: Whatever, yes. “Give me twenty-five percent. You can utilize the land.” So that is resource of the land.

Devotee: How does the ksatriya build a palace for himself or something like that?

Prabhupada: That will be done. To keep a prestigious position, they’ll have building, servant, soldiers. Otherwise how they will fear? How they’ll have respect?

Devotee: So the ksatriya is the predominator of the land.

Prabhupada: Yes. ksatriya is the owner of the land.

Devotee: And he can take the stones and men and build a big, nice…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Devotee: …palace.

Prabhupada: The sudras are there. Give him his eating, and some hand, pocket expense, hand expense, regular. If one can eat, then he has no demand. So the laborer has to be given to eat sumptuously. “Eat and work, take some pocket…” They will be (indistinct). Not that you call professional laborer and you have to pay twenty-five dollars per hour. That is nuisance. They’ll drink. That’s all. And not that everyone should have nice house. Why? What is the use? Go in the village, live simple, produce food. That’s all. Eat. Why this electricity and three-hundred storey building and…? And then you don’t produce anything, eat fish. “And let me eat…” Artificial. It is very easy to take the animals in the city and slaughter. A little vegetable and milk, they are satisfied.

Jagadisa: Even in the culture of Europe they had kings who had a certain territory and then they would appoint men called vassals to take care of different sections and then the serfs would work on the land.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is system, whole world. They were called… In India they were called zamindars, Mohammedans, and the Hindu zamindars, small kings. The zamindars are called king also. Anyone who owns land, he is called king.

Devotee: Just like Nanda Mahäräja, he also had land. Nanda Mahäräja.

Prabhupada: Yes. He was therefore called king. But he was a vaisya. He engaged his land for agriculture and cow keeping. And Krsna took charge of the cows, the calves, although still calf, He, (indistinct). This is the system. He was going with the calves whole day, playing with the boys and taking care of the cows, in the evening come back. Mother then washes and bathes and gives nice food. And immediately goes to sleep. And Krsna is clever. At night He goes to the gopés. (laughter) Then mother Yaçodä did not know, when she thought, “My good son is sleeping.” And the gopés also would come at a place and they’ll dance. This is called life, childhood life. And when He was grown up, then He was brought to, I mean to say, Mathurä and He fought with His maternal uncle, killed him, and then His father Vasudeva, took care, sent Him to, what is that? Sändépani Muni. He was educated. He was learning every subject every day. Then He was taken to Dvärakä, married so many queens, and became king. In the Krsna’s life, He’s always busy. Krsna… You’ll never find, from the very beginning of His life He’s busy killing Putana, Aghasura, Bakasura, and His friends, they are confident. They’ll enter into the mouth of Aghasura. “Oh, Krsna is there. He will kill.”

This is Vrndavana. There is no need, and I don’t find in Bhägavata, big factory and slaughterhouse, no. Nothing. The whole atmosphere is surcharged with sinful life. How people will be happy? Now they are coming to crimes and hippies and so many things, problems, diplomacy, CIA and what other? So many unnecessary waste of energy, time, and money. Vicious condition. Better give up city. Make Vrndavana, like this. City life is abominable. If you don’t live in the city, you don’t require petrol, motor car. It is no use. They may criticize that “You are going to the farm in a car.” So for the time being, there is no vehicle. Otherwise bullock cart—where is the difficulty? Suppose you are coming, one hour, and it takes one day. And if you are satisfied, such life, there is no question of moving. Maybe local moving, from this village to that village. That is sufficient, bullock carts. Why motor car? Drive here and park problem. Not only park problem, there are so many things. There are three thousand parts, motor car. You have to produce them, big factory.

Satsvarupa: Insurance.

Prabhupada: Insur… So much! Everyone is being (indistinct). We do not decry, but we point out, “In this way our valuable time of life is being wasted.” They say it is primitive life, but it is peaceful life. We want peaceful life and save time for Krsna consciousness. That is not primitive. That is intelligent life.

Satsvarupa: In order to evidence this, should we consider that we have to act as Ksatriyas or shall we just preach and try to get others…

Prabhupada: No… Ksatriyas, I have already explained who is brahmana and ksatriya according to guna-karma-vibhägaçaù, [From Bg. 4.13: “According to the three modes of material nature and the work associated with them, the four divisions of human society are created by Me”] as you work, as you are fit for. If you are fit to become brahmana, become brahmana. If you are fit to become ksatriya, become ksatriya. If you are fit to become sudra, do it. Three… Then… And a man who cannot become fit for any other purpose, he is sudra. That’s all. “Help the brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya and take your food and little pocket expense. That’s all.” Little pocket expenditure. But in our society we don’t require, but even if it is required we can give.

Brahmananda: So eventually we should divide up our society in this way? Our members…

Prabhupada: Yes, just to show people how to… The first-class men, brahmana, second-class, ksatriya, third-class, vaisya, fourth-class…

Satsvarupa: But all in our society are Vaisnavas.

Prabhupada: That is our real position. This is for management.

Nityananda: How many Ksatriyas can I have on this farm? How many Ksatriyas can we have on one farm?

Prabhupada: I told. Find out who is going to be ksatriya. Then… Take your time (?).

Nityananda: You can have more than one?

Prabhupada: No, no. (Why not??) There is no rule. As according to the work, if people are interested to work as vaisya, let them become vaisya. If he is intelligent, if he wants to work as brahmana, let him work as brahmana. Let him work as ksatriya. And the fourth-class, let him work as sudra. So the management should see that nobody is unemployed or not engaged, men, women. Woman can take care of the milk products or spining (spinning). And sudras can be engaged for working as weaver, as a blacksmith, a goldsmith. There are so many things.

Jagadisa: Cobbler?

Prabhupada: Cobbler is less than sudra. Yes. Cobbler means when the cows die, the cobbler may take it. If he wants, he can eat the flesh, and he can utilize the bone, hoofs. He can prepare… He gets the skin without any price. So he can make shoes and he’ll make some profit. And because he is cobbler, he can be allowed to eat meat, fifth-class… Not that “Professor such-and-such,” and eating meat. This is the degradation of society. He is doing the work of a brahmana—teacher means brahmana—and eating meat—Oh, horrible! Syamasundara?

So make, organize. I can give you the idea, but I’ll not live very long. If you can carry out, you can change the whole… Especially if you can change America, then whole world will change. Then the whole world… And it is the duty because they are kept in darkness and ignorance, then the human life is being spoiled. These rascals, because they do not know how to live… Andhä yathändhair… They are blind, and they are leading… Others are blind, and they are leading and they, all of them, going to ditch.

So it is the duty. There is… Caitanya has explained, para-upakära. Save them. If it is not possible to save everyone, as many as possible… This is human life. This is Krsna consciousness, to save others who are in the darkness.

It is not a profession: “Now, Krsna consciousness is my profession. I’m getting very easily food and shelter.” Just like the Indians, they are doing, a profession, say another means of livelihood. Not like that. It is for para-upakära, actually benefitting the others. That is Krsna consciousness. Then Krsna will be very much pleased: “Oh, he is trying.” ’Cause Krsna personally comes for doing this benefit to the people, and if you do, then how much Krsna will be pleased. Then? Just like I am traveling in my centers, and if I see that my students, my men are doing very nice, everything is going nice, how much pleased I will be, that I’ll save my labors and now write books for the rest of my time. Similarly, if Krsna sees that you are, on behalf of Krsna, you are trying to save these rascals, then He’ll be very (indistinct) with you.

They are rascals. The leaders are rascals and the followers are rascals and they’re all going to hell. Nature’s law is very strict. Daivé hy eñä gunamayé mama mäyä duratyayä [Bg. 7.14] You cannot avoid it. Nature is all- powerful. Krsna has given: “You work in this way.” She’ll work. She’ll work. She’ll punish. As soon as there is little discrepancy—you have eaten, eaten more than is necessary—indigestion. “Indigestion, starve.” This is nature’s law. Nature will act. But you have to (indistinct) them with knowledge that “You don’t do this. Otherwise you will be under the control of nature life after life. Simply miseries.” Para-duùkha-duùkhé. Vaisnava’s qualification is para-duùkha-duùkhé. He is unhappy by seeing others’ distress. This is Vaisnava.